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brianfletch · (19/09/12)

I raise your million pounds by 10, ( if I had it ) that as soon as money is required for an expensive court case. That ECITA will suddenly cease trading, takes all the money they have raked in, and disappears.

Also, as soon as the UK government decides to tax, at the rate that vendors claim their carto`s are, in equivilance to cigarettes. Then all of a sudden, the wording will change.

Rojeans · 20/09/12 10:43 AM

Isn't this an advertising standards issue?

Gluggler · (29/09/12)

(20/09/12 10:43 AM)Rojeans Wrote: Isn't this an advertising standards issue?

Indeed, however even if a cartomiser actually delivered 100% of its nicotine to the human body then at 18mg/ml it still wouldn't be equal to 40 cigs.

Quote: operating within the law and demonstrating a commitment to ethical business practices

- from http://www.ecita.org.uk

I am not sure that it is ethical to claim a carto=40cigs

ukric · 20/09/12 11:43 AM

but but but, theres this machine see, and it proved it see, the machine.... Wink

brianfletch · 20/09/12 10:55 PM

(20/09/12 11:43 AM)ukric Wrote: but but but, theres this machine see, and it proved it see, the machine....

They have of course, used this "machine" to smoke a stinkie as well. And compared it to a seasoned smoker with a stinkie.

SnowBall · 29/09/12 08:10 PM

Is ECCA any good? never really seen anything they've done either

ivape · 30/09/12 05:08 PM

(19/09/12 08:53 PM)rolygate Wrote: Are ECITA any good?

That question seems to infer, "...for the rest of us?".

Let's face it, their job is to work for their members, who are large-scale vendors. In that regard you could only ask those members. Small-scale vendors or other vendors who aren't ECITA members may find that ECITA are perhaps not so good for them - but that's their problem I guess. And for consumers? That question is a little more complex. They protect their members to the best of their ability and that means there are negatives for the rest of us.

On the face of it they don't do much for us in terms of consumer issues, in fact the opposite. As has been stated, we haven't seen a great deal (if anything) in the way of published e-liquid analyses, and that would be my main concern. They really need to do a hell of a lot better in that department. Other issues might be considered minor in comparison to that, although others will no doubt disagree.

ECITA won't do anything about obvious marketing issues such as the quit-smoking claims that some of their members are alleged to make (which would be illegal, if such exist), and the 'one of our cartos is equal to 20 cigarettes' [or more], that we all know several of their members make. ECITA make various excuses about these issues but the fact is they are bad for all of us since these claims (at least, the carto one) are injurious in several ways.

Numerous justifications are made by ECITA for continuing to tolerate such claims, but these excuses are basically a sign of weak management. It's easy to stop them: just tell members to stop it or have their membership terminated. Such claims would be impossible to support with any scientific evidence - such as measurement of the nicotine in the vapor, or blood plasma nicotine levels [1]; or by a clinical study with experienced vapers giving a personal opinion of the number of cigarettes a carto tested by that person is equal to in their opinion. My guess is an average of 6 cigarettes, and I doubt if others would give an answer too far off that. We already know that new consumers are (a) worried that they are OD'ing on nic because they were 20-a-day smokers and go through 3 or 4 pre-filled cartos a day, and the mis-marketing leads them to believe they are vaping the equivalent of 60 cigarettes or more; or (b) annoyed and disgusted 'by ecigs' since the claims are way off the real-world experience.

Add to that, the justification used by some vendors, which references the nicotine content of a carto - as if that was relevant in any way. Such a massive logic error revealing complete ignorance of any basic science would be cause for a 14 year old in a science class to get a fail mark. "Our carto contains 18mg of nicotine so it is equivalent to 18 cigarettes." Just wow :-)

We don't know how much nic there is in vapor, and you have to compare smoke with vapor, not smoke with liquid. Perhaps the first step ECITA might take is to employ a scientist who could explain basic science to their members; and that (a) we don't know how much nicotine there is in ecig vapor because it has never been reliably tested (although rough indications are that it is about 50% of what is in the liquid); and (b) you can't compare a rock with a fairy cake because the comparison is irrelevant.

It would be nice if people supplying a consumer product with potentially toxic ingredients had a basic idea of how to do simple sums and think logically at 14 year old level.

[1] Show me a test where a smoker has their blood plasma nicotine level measured when smoking their preferred brand of cigarette, then, at another time, while vaping one of these '1 carto = 20 cigs' products. Let's see them get their blood plasma nic level up to the same value as the cigarette.

Then if that passes (which it may not, thus rendering the test a fail at the first hurdle): then show that it can be maintained over 20 ecig sessions where the blood plasma nic level is equal.

I'd bet you a million quid (if I had it) that such a test would fail within a few hours if not the first few minutes. And that's the science - it just doesn't work in favour of ridiculous claims such as '1 carto = 20 cigs'. Not that you need any science here, 9 out of 10 experienced users would be able to confirm it. If the science doesn't support it, and a panel of experienced users don't support the claim either - where does that leave you? Making proven unrealistic and possibly fraudulent marketing claims, is where.

However - what ECITA are good at is providing brute force and money. ECITA was first mooted in the aftermath of the LACORS affair (where some incompetent fools in a government agency made a factor 10 error in calculations of nicotine strength), and was then formed as a direct result of the MHRA attack on the legality of ecigs. The Dept of Health are now well aware that if they try to promote pharma's agenda they will face serious opposition in court here - and that is ECITA's biggest contribution. I welcome it since otherwise we would be buried, and that's the simple truth. The EU situation is a little more fluid but ECITA does have a useful voice in that arena as well. There are two things that count here: money for legal defence, and massive publicity and exposure of corruption. Both are proven problem-solvers. ECITA has the money and that is invaluable.

On a separate topic, it would be a very good idea if smaller vendors also formed a UK or UK & Ireland trade association, something along the lines of a mutual benefit organisation that charged an affordable fee, £50 a month or something similar. There are at least 20 vendors who would probably consider joining something like that. Again, there would be benefits to all in that arrangement.

Best post ever. Particularly the last paragraph.

Rojeans · 30/09/12 09:34 PM

(30/09/12 05:08 PM)ivape Wrote:
(19/09/12 08:53 PM)rolygate Wrote: Are ECITA any good?

On a separate topic, it would be a very good idea if smaller vendors also formed a UK or UK & Ireland trade association, something along the lines of a mutual benefit organisation that charged an affordable fee, £50 a month or something similar. There are at least 20 vendors who would probably consider joining something like that. Again, there would be benefits to all in that arrangement.

Best post ever. Particularly the last paragraph.

Agreed, but £12k a year would just about cater for a baristers toilet paper Sad

now, if 100's of vendors would participate, that would make a little more noise. In fact, that's not more than just a few per county. I believe that before long, every town will have its own vendor with cities having more than one. This is clearly a revolution that some do not want, but it is happening Wink

JayLavEnts · 03/10/12 12:59 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Rolygate that a smaller organisation for smaller businesses would be beneficial.

I disagree with carto count as much as the next guy, but I consider an explanation at POS to go a long way towards lowering a persons expectations, and they understand the 'puff-count' mentality.
Even when people come for refills and say they went through a lot more cartos in a week than they thought they would, they still don't have any fear regarding Nicotene consumption etc. and they agree that it's still cheaper than smoking- even if it's two cartos a day.

In fairness I don't think more than two cartos a day is required for any of the brands I work with- 3 or 4 seems ridiculous unless you're talking a chain smoker.

I agree it's not a fair representation- but then it's comparable to smoking- not vaping- so the psychological element goes a long way.

If blood plasma tests were done then I would support a re-defined carto claim.

**OldEngineGuy** · (14/12/12)

The problem with the carto claims and customers using more than they expected is the enjoyment vs fear/guilt factor I believe... when smoking, I would regulate myself through fear for my health knowing that the more I smoked, the more damage I was doing, but during times of stress or even socialising, I would smoke more, then feel bad about it afterwards.

The "fear" element has now been removed, and enjoying vaping actally more than I enjoyed smoking, I probably take twice or perhaps three times as many puffs per day on my PV, than I did on cigarettes, secure in the knowledge that I am harming my health far less than smoking however much I vape.

There was also the physical discomfort that regulated smoking as well... the tight chest and sore throat when I overdid the ciggies, and a,ctually becoming totally fed up with the taste of them towards the end of the day, yet still "needing" the fix.

I find that if I wish I am able to chain vape with no ill effects, well no apparent ill effects anyhow, not even shortness of breath which as an emphysema sufferer I definitely experienced after every cigarette towards the end.

So new vapers may need to expect to use more cartos/liquid than manufacturers claims compared to smoking, as freed from the health implications of tobacco, they may find themselves vaping more freely than they smoked.