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Manifesto
Markse Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Manifesto
Well given the rarity of accidents involving these mods, how significant is this problem really? Shouldn't we wait for further ongoing testing before jumping to conclusions? I have tried personally to cause fully charged unprotected Samsung 18650 ICR's to do something by hard shorting them in a relatively controlled manner and gave up because they did very little. The concern should maybe aimed at the supply of inferior quality batteries? I maintain though that the charging of cheap ego-type ecigs is actually of far more concern as there are far more of them around and apparently no standards.

As an example to others, and not that I care for moderation myself, it has always been my rule never to vape when asleep and never to refrain when awake.
31/10/14 12:05 AM
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blaze Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Manifesto
(30/10/14 11:02 PM)yahoo2u2 Wrote:  For me this is one area that is too big

We will support the pub industry by campaigning for ecigs to be permitted in more pubs.

Restaurants? or pubs that sell food might not be happy with this.

just my opinion, but pubs would be problematic.

I must have read this manifesto 10 or more times as jessica has brought it to its latest incarnation, and I agree with you yahoo2u2, something doesn't feel right about that statement.

We will provide pubs and restaurants with accurate information about ecigs, We think a business should have a right to choose what they allow or disallow on their premises.

?
31/10/14 12:12 AM
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itsmeitis Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Manifesto
(31/10/14 12:05 AM)Markse Wrote:  how significant is this problem really? Shouldn't we wait for further ongoing testing before jumping to conclusions?

i would have said so, yes - but i'm not the industry voice which has already submitted those statements ...

i have enough 'mods' and a wealth experience to believe the whole "It is a matter of the utmost concern that it appears to be the case that many of the mech mods are designed with inadequate venting provision, and many have vents of insufficient size located at the wrong end of where the battery may vent", is alarmist, unnecessary and not a conclusion that i'd reach ...

but,

if i were to become a public body representing vaping and insisting on specific wants, i'd need to take due consideration if adhering to "any real concerns of safety"
(This post was last modified: 31/10/14 12:52 AM by itsmeitis.)
31/10/14 12:14 AM
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blaze Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Manifesto
(31/10/14 12:05 AM)Markse Wrote:  Well given the rarity of accidents involving these mods, how significant is this problem really? Shouldn't we wait for further ongoing testing before jumping to conclusions? I have tried personally to cause fully charged unprotected Samsung 18650 ICR's to do something by hard shorting them in a relatively controlled manner and gave up because they did very little. The concern should maybe aimed at the supply of inferior quality batteries? I maintain though that the charging of cheap ego-type ecigs is actually of far more concern as there are far more of them around and apparently no standards.

I 99% agree with this - but the 1% is saying that even if its rare, it still shouldn't happen. The venting thing is a real thing even if it only impacts (pun not intended) a few people.
31/10/14 12:16 AM
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yahoo2u2 Offline
Vaping is NOT a crime, banning it is
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Post: #15
RE: Manifesto
I totally agree that we cant put our names behind anything that could be seen to be harmful, yet I would consider that we cant re-write history, so in this respect it would be a good idea to let others drive this forward.

If the party became embroiled in areas that for the most part be beyond control (China for example), however it would be good to offer support and adopt guidelines.

(31/10/14 12:12 AM)blaze Wrote:  
(30/10/14 11:02 PM)yahoo2u2 Wrote:  For me this is one area that is too big

We will support the pub industry by campaigning for ecigs to be permitted in more pubs.

Restaurants? or pubs that sell food might not be happy with this.

just my opinion, but pubs would be problematic.

I must have read this manifesto 10 or more times as jessica has brought it to its latest incarnation, and I agree with you yahoo2u2, something doesn't feel right about that statement.

We will provide pubs and restaurants with accurate information about ecigs, We think a business should have a right to choose what they allow or disallow on their premises.

?

Yes, it does seem better, but maybe something like this

We shall provide publicly accessible establishments with upto date and current guidelines on vaping in public.

just a thought.


İmage


Smile, it wont hurt you, go on try it......or not, freedom of choice I suppose.
(This post was last modified: 31/10/14 12:29 AM by yahoo2u2.)
31/10/14 12:26 AM
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jessica Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Manifesto
(31/10/14 12:12 AM)blaze Wrote:  
(30/10/14 11:02 PM)yahoo2u2 Wrote:  For me this is one area that is too big

We will support the pub industry by campaigning for ecigs to be permitted in more pubs.

Restaurants? or pubs that sell food might not be happy with this.

just my opinion, but pubs would be problematic.

I must have read this manifesto 10 or more times as jessica has brought it to its latest incarnation, and I agree with you yahoo2u2, something doesn't feel right about that statement.

We will provide pubs and restaurants with accurate information about ecigs, We think a business should have a right to choose what they allow or disallow on their premises.

?

We are saying that we will campaign for ecigs to be permitted in more pubs - not that we will apply force to pubs to allow vaping. Some pubs would probably benefit from having vaping areas or allowing vaping throughout (those which have suffered from the smoking ban). Pubs which sell a lot of food and rely on families would probably prefer not to.

This probably needs rewriting (it was picked up on AAEC too). We need to make it clearer that pubs should have the freedom to choose.

Administrator at the New Nicotine Alliance(UK) , Registered Charity Number 1160481
31/10/14 12:35 AM
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yahoo2u2 Offline
Vaping is NOT a crime, banning it is
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Post: #17
RE: Manifesto
"We are saying that we will campaign for ecigs to be permitted in more pubs"

But that should imho not be so restrictive within a manifesto. A more generic statement about providing information so an informed choice could be made. Currently, pubs are free to allow or not, yet some have decided against it for what ever reason.

Information available to us is no different to that available to the management who make the decisions, however, we could provide them with regular updates. But this in itself its problematic as the information would be positive for vaping I would suspect with no counter balance.


İmage


Smile, it wont hurt you, go on try it......or not, freedom of choice I suppose.
31/10/14 12:45 AM
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FlavourArtUK Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Manifesto
I'll spend some more time this weekend on suitable revisions that will provide a concise, clear, and reasonable alternative.

One part that really does need changing is:

"The TPD limits the nicotine strength in eliquids to an arbitrary and unscientific 20 mg/ml, based on a misreading of a paper by Dr Farsalinos."

It is bad grammar as it implies that the misreading of the paper was done by Dr Farsalinos. It should read:

"The TPD limits the Nicotine strength in eliquids to an arbitrary and unscientific 20 mg/ml, based on the misreading/misinterpretation of a scientific paper
that was submitted in good faith by Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos at the request of the European Commission."

John.

BTW It's not just ecigs with the potential for battery malfunctions.




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İmage
31/10/14 07:50 AM
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jessica Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Manifesto
The manifesto has been redone to reflect ideas from here, the Vapers In Power FB pages and AAEC and POTV. I think there is a broad general agreement on the ideas in it (though please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) although it's unlikely that everyone is going to agree with everything in it. Please suggest changes to the language, grammar and punctuation, if you have the time to look at it Smiling There are 2 footnote references which haven't copied and pasted over - Letter from Dr Farsalinos and other key scientists sent to the EU and the ECITA blog on the toxicity of eliquid If it is a good idea to have references then it could probably do with a few more. It definitely needs a concluding sentence too.



Vapers In Power Manifesto (28.11.2014 revised)


Vapers In Power exists to uphold the right of smokers and ex-smokers to practise harm reduction using all types of ecigs: whether using technically-advanced devices, or generation one “cig-a-likes”.

Ecigs and The Tobacco Products Directive (Article 20)

Ecigs are a powerful harm reduction tool because users can tailor their vaping experience to suit their individual tastes and needs. To satisfy this need the ecig market offers a wide selection of devices - and an even wider choice of eliquid flavours and strengths. Vapers In Power rejects Article 20 of The Tobacco Products Directive, (compliance for the EU member states from May 2016) because it imposes heavy-handed and inappropriate regulations which will outlaw effective ecigs and eliquids. Article 20 limits the nicotine strength in eliquids to an arbitrary and unscientific 20mg/ml, based on the misreading and misinterpretation of a scientific paper that was submitted in good faith by Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos at the request of the European Commission. This limit will prevent heavy smokers from switching from tobacco to ecigs, and will cost lives. The legislators have also ignored modern scientific knowledge of the toxicity of nicotine , and impose a limit on eliquid bottle capacity to 10mls, thereby creating an increased choking hazard. Article 20 imposes a six-month notification regime for new ecig products, with no justification. Member states will be allowed to ban all non-medical ecigs, and eliquid flavourings. Article 20 proposes outrageously expensive and largely irrelevant testing procedures, yet fails to address the real safety concerns which most vapers would welcome regulation on – limits on diketones, for example. It also applies an advertising ban on ecigs, which will reduce the number of new users moving from smoking to vaping.

This inappropriate and heavy-handed regulation will squander the current and future public health gains from ecigs. Ecigs are not tobacco products and should never have been included in this directive. The TPD protects the interests of the pharmaceutical companies, which produce ineffective nicotine replacement therapies, and drugs to treat smoking related illnesses. Article 20 also perversely gives an advantage to the tobacco companies, as cigarettes will be more widely available than ecigs.

It’s important to realise that ecigs have not been shown to harm, they are actually starting to generate measurable population-level health benefits





Appropriate Regulation for Ecigs

What is appropriate regulation for ecigs? Vapers In Power supports the continuation of general consumer product regulations applying to ecigs and eliquid, with certain provisos:
• We call for new legislation to regulate the sales of ecigs to minors.
• We want appropriate warnings on eliquid bottles, to reflect the actual toxicity of nicotine, and to comply with any relevant CLP regulations.
• We are committed to affordable and effective testing for known or potential dangers in flavoured eliquids, and for eliquid manufacturers to be inspected for hygiene under existing legislation.
• We believe that existing consumer legislation is sufficient for the safety of batteries and chargers. Ecig vendors should supply comprehensive guidelines about battery and charger safety with ecig battery products. We will also push to end the dangerous situation whereby 5V chargers and 4.2V chargers can be used interchangeably.
• We demand regulations to ensure that ecig devices are adequately vented, where appropriate

We do not accept that ecigs should be classified as either tobacco or medicinal products because they do not fall into either category: ecigs should be regulated as a general consumer product.

Vaping and society

Vaping needs wide public acceptance if it is to continue saving lives.
• We will push for action against bogus science and propaganda that endangers life. Journalists and scientists who misrepresent research should be held to account – their actions have fatal consequences.
• We will support the thriving, small ecig businesses which are driving innovation in the ecig sector, and boosting local economies by employing local people.
• We want the maximum taxation for ecigs and eliquid to be levied at the VAT rate: we believe it would be morally wrong to sin tax this infinitely less harmful tobacco alternative
• We will defend the right of individuals to use ecigs in all outside public spaces.
We will defend the right of the individual to decide whether ecig use should be permitted on their property.

• We shall provide publicly accessible establishments with up-to-date guidelines on vaping in public.
• We are committed to educating both individuals and corporate bodies with regards to the facts of ecig use and harm reduction.
• We call on employers who prohibit the use of ecigs in the workplace to re-assess their policies, and at minimum to provide separate shelters.
• We defend the right to promote ecigs in public

Administrator at the New Nicotine Alliance(UK) , Registered Charity Number 1160481
28/11/14 11:25 PM
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FlamingKaty Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Manifesto
*Pedant Alert*

Nearly all the commas are unecessary, especially those before 'and' Big Grin

Other than that I think it's great. Seems to cover all bases without being too wordy or jargon filled for non-users.

28/11/14 11:45 PM
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