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The "Carto equals" claim thread
kenny Offline
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Post: #41
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
I don't think you get my point. I hate dishonesty of any sort, whether that be the silly claims made by many disposable look a like sellers or someone saying that cartos should be thrown away when they run dry after half a day when in fact refilling them can make them last longer.

If you read my earlier posts you may understand. Wink

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin (1706-1790)


İmage
22/08/12 04:14 PM
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Chrissie (22/08/12)
Ian-C Offline
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Post: #42
Re: The "Carto equals" claim thread
When i first started looking at e-cigs, i spent hours looking at different sites looking at the carto equivelance and calculating costs based on my cigarette usage. If it had not been for the false claims made i would have worked out that it would have not been much cheaper using cartos from the e-cig site and i probably would not have brought one (SkyCig in this case).

It was only when my months supply of cartos looked like it was only going to last just over a week, i started researching bigger battery mods and juice. If i had not ordered my lavatube and a DCT i would probably be back on the stinkies now.

Fortunatly i was in a position to spend a lot of time trying to find what i needed to get me off the analogs and i have not had one since my lavatube arrived, even though i have 100 Marlboro sitting on the shelf next to me.

I think the equivelance figure needs to represent vaping from a smokers point of view as it's only smokers that really look at how many cigarettes is in one carto, vapers know what they consume and are usually happy to know how many ml of juice a carto will hold.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note using Tapatalk 2

22/08/12 04:18 PM
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JayLavEnts Offline
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Post: #43
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
(21/08/12 02:26 PM)kenny Wrote:  By the same token, telling someone who knows no better that two cartomisers will last a day when more experienced folk know they last a week each if you refill them is very misleading even though its cheaper than smoking. Confused

Ok, I know what you are saying mate but that's like Wetherspoons telling people to bring a bottle of vodka in with you and top up your Coke. A single vodka and coke could last all night in that regard...

I can easily see your side here but until I start selling liquid, I will be advising people instead how to make sure they don't run out of carts.

The misleading element is not that you can't refill them it's how long they are suggested to last, and whether it should be referenced to a specific number of cigarettes. They're not "Supposed" to be refillable.

Do you see where I'm coming from?
22/08/12 04:49 PM
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Matt Gluggles Offline
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Post: #44
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
(22/08/12 04:18 PM)Ian-C Wrote:  When i first started looking at e-cigs, i spent hours looking at different sites looking at the carto equivelance and calculating costs based on my cigarette usage. If it had not been for the false claims made i would have worked out that it would have not been much cheaper using cartos from the e-cig site and i probably would not have brought one (SkyCig in this case).

I have just had a look at one of these big company websites, and they are selling
2 'refills' for £7.99 (equivalent to 80 cigs)
or 10 for £34.99 (equivalent to 400 cigs)

The thing is it is perfectly possible to sell these cartos for alot less and still make a reasonable profit.

For example I sell 5 pre-filled for 6.99 (= 1.40 each) and describe them as being 'about a pack of 10'

I don't even import from China, I buy from within the UK, and am still able to make a reasonable profit.

It simply doesn't work to justify the exagerated claims of some companies on the basis that you know someone who took up vaping because of it.



(22/08/12 04:18 PM)Ian-C Wrote:  It was only when my months supply of cartos looked like it was only going to last just over a week, i started researching bigger battery mods and juice. If i had not ordered my lavatube and a DCT i would probably be back on the stinkies now.

This just is the exact proof, Ian-C looked for an alternative when he realised the claims were false. Many others don't and end up "back on the stinkies".

For every person that becomes a vaper as a result of the false claims, there will be 2 or 3 that return to the stinkies (who wouldn't have done if the cartos were priced fairly and the claims were more realistic).
22/08/12 04:51 PM
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kenny Offline
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Post: #45
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
(22/08/12 04:49 PM)JayLavEnts Wrote:  
(21/08/12 02:26 PM)kenny Wrote:  By the same token, telling someone who knows no better that two cartomisers will last a day when more experienced folk know they last a week each if you refill them is very misleading even though its cheaper than smoking. Confused

Ok, I know what you are saying mate but that's like Wetherspoons telling people to bring a bottle of vodka in with you and top up your Coke. A single vodka and coke could last all night in that regard...

I can easily see your side here but until I start selling liquid, I will be advising people instead how to make sure they don't run out of carts.

The misleading element is not that you can't refill them it's how long they are suggested to last, and whether it should be referenced to a specific number of cigarettes. They're not "Supposed" to be refillable.

Do you see where I'm coming from?


I think we are a little bit of cross purposes here but I do see where you are coming from. Big Grin

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin (1706-1790)


İmage
22/08/12 05:24 PM
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FlavourArtUK Offline
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Post: #46
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
(22/08/12 02:10 PM)Paco Wrote:  
(21/08/12 06:23 AM)FlavourArtUK Wrote:  I think that question will be answered when they receive their MA.
They are playing on the same pitch as the big boys, so they play a different game.
You could say we're just having a kick around on the car park, such is life.

Any claims that are the result of any tests or research, should be backed up by the corresponding data. But nonetheless, the question has been answered. "they play a different game".

It's hypocritical for you, as a vendor and someone who makes "claims", to comment on what is a consumer issue and top of that accuse other companies.

It's never a good idea for a vendor to comment of forums because the image they give, is how their company is perceived.

I retract everything I ever claimed about anything in the world in case I cannot back it up with the data required.
I have only been in this industry since October 2008 and I was unfortunate to have worked with a company that
had a vision from day one of the potential of ecigs. If you think I'm hypocritical, take a look around you and see
how so many vapers want ecigs in the mainstream, who claim they stopped smoking because of ecigs, who encourage
others to follow the same path, and yet criticise Intellicig, a company who have done more pioneering work in
this field than you could even imagine. Sorry, I retract that because it might be interpreted as a claim.

I've told you before and I will tell you for the last time. Contact David Lawson, the Regulatory and Clinical Manager
at Intellicig's laboratory facility at UMIC and ask him some questions, or even a tour of their facility, instead of griping on
and on about it. If you don't understand the concept of 'commercial sensitivity' that explains why you insinuate that me, Intellicig,
and anyone else who believes that they really have conducted research are liars.

If you want to lecture me on ethics then I'll be asleep before you finish your first sentence. You refuse to to make the simplest effort
to confirm the claims that have been made or to understand why they cannot be disclosed in detail until an MA is granted to Intellicig.
What that will bring is greater credibility to electronic cigarettes as a harm reduction tool and give more weight to the arguments
that have been repeated ad infinitum on this and many other websites. If you can't see that then maybe there should be a place set
aside in Sherwood Forest where Vapers can go and if they evade capture for a year and a day they are granted freedom.

Today I was speaking with Massimiliano Mancini, the owner of FlavourArt Italy, and we were discussing the incredible work done by his
company under the guidance of Dr Giorgio Romagna in conjunction with Dr K. Farsalinos. They too are pioneers working on behalf of us all,
not just to make vaping acceptable, but to make it as safe as possible by investing significant amounts of money into key research projects.
While many are enjoying Vapefest on Sunday, grabbing the freebies and having a go on the gasmask, a presentation will be in progress
at the European Society of Cardiology in Munich - Giorgio was about to leave for the conference as I was speaking to Max this afternoon.

Here's what Giorgio had to say:
I am glad to announce you that on August 26, at 17:15, at the European Congress of cargiology (ESC Congress 2012) in Munich,
Dr K. Farsalinos’ work on cardiovascular effects of electronic smoke will be presented.
Acute effects of using an electronic nicotine-delivery device (e-cigarette) on myocardial function: comparison with the effects of
regular cigarettes (Farsalinos K. et al)

The study, due to its originality and innovation, has been selected for oral presentation in front of 32,000 physicians from all over the world.

Even more importantly for the e-cigarette community, a press conference has been organized by the European Society of Cardiology,
presenting this study among the 4 most important smoking-related studies of the congress.

I can not provide you details on the study results, which must remain secret until the date of presentation,
but I can tell you that I look forward
to personally attend the presentation and gather impressions of colleagues present.

So when Giorgio makes a claim about electronic cigarette vapour not being harmless, I must remind him that he is a hypocrite unless he can disclose data;
it doesn't matter whether it is vital to his work or to the future of their business or is commercially sensitive, but that someone on a forum doesn't believe him.

If you cannot differentiate between wild claims with no offer of evidence and claims that can be substantiated if you would only make the effort to send an email
then it intimates to me that you are just stirring the pot, not the first and probably not the last. You have the gall to tell me 'It's never a good idea for a vendor
to comment of forums because the image they give, is how their company is perceived.', well back that up with evidence or jump on the hypocrisy bandwagon with me.

Best wishes

JC

√-1 2^3 ∑ π and it was delicious!
İmage
22/08/12 07:06 PM
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JayLavEnts Offline
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Post: #47
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
I think you are right....


Either way, I think there are two distinct markets in vaping. I disagree with overly priced items as much as the next guy.
22/08/12 07:20 PM
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kenny Offline
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Post: #48
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
(22/08/12 07:06 PM)FlavourArtUK Wrote:  
(22/08/12 02:10 PM)Paco Wrote:  
(21/08/12 06:23 AM)FlavourArtUK Wrote:  I think that question will be answered when they receive their MA.
They are playing on the same pitch as the big boys, so they play a different game.
You could say we're just having a kick around on the car park, such is life.

Any claims that are the result of any tests or research, should be backed up by the corresponding data. But nonetheless, the question has been answered. "they play a different game".

It's hypocritical for you, as a vendor and someone who makes "claims", to comment on what is a consumer issue and top of that accuse other companies.

It's never a good idea for a vendor to comment of forums because the image they give, is how their company is perceived.

I retract everything I ever claimed about anything in the world in case I cannot back it up with the data required.
I have only been in this industry since October 2008 and I was unfortunate to have worked with a company that
had a vision from day one of the potential of ecigs. If you think I'm hypocritical, take a look around you and see
how so many vapers want ecigs in the mainstream, who claim they stopped smoking because of ecigs, who encourage
others to follow the same path, and yet criticise Intellicig, a company who have done more pioneering work in
this field than you could even imagine. Sorry, I retract that because it might be interpreted as a claim.

I've told you before and I will tell you for the last time. Contact David Lawson, the Regulatory and Clinical Manager
at Intellicig's laboratory facility at UMIC and ask him some questions, or even a tour of their facility, instead of griping on
and on about it. If you don't understand the concept of 'commercial sensitivity' that explains why you insinuate that me, Intellicig,
and anyone else who believes that they really have conducted research are liars.

If you want to lecture me on ethics then I'll be asleep before you finish your first sentence. You refuse to to make the simplest effort
to confirm the claims that have been made or to understand why they cannot be disclosed in detail until an MA is granted to Intellicig.
What that will bring is greater credibility to electronic cigarettes as a harm reduction tool and give more weight to the arguments
that have been repeated ad infinitum on this and many other websites. If you can't see that then maybe there should be a place set
aside in Sherwood Forest where Vapers can go and if they evade capture for a year and a day they are granted freedom.

Today I was speaking with Massimiliano Mancini, the owner of FlavourArt Italy, and we were discussing the incredible work done by his
company under the guidance of Dr Giorgio Romagna in conjunction with Dr K. Farsalinos. They too are pioneers working on behalf of us all,
not just to make vaping acceptable, but to make it as safe as possible by investing significant amounts of money into key research projects.
While many are enjoying Vapefest on Sunday, grabbing the freebies and having a go on the gasmask, a presentation will be in progress
at the European Society of Cardiology in Munich - Giorgio was about to leave for the conference as I was speaking to Max this afternoon.

Here's what Giorgio had to say:
I am glad to announce you that on August 26, at 17:15, at the European Congress of cargiology (ESC Congress 2012) in Munich,
Dr K. Farsalinos’ work on cardiovascular effects of electronic smoke will be presented.
Acute effects of using an electronic nicotine-delivery device (e-cigarette) on myocardial function: comparison with the effects of
regular cigarettes (Farsalinos K. et al)

The study, due to its originality and innovation, has been selected for oral presentation in front of 32,000 physicians from all over the world.

Even more importantly for the e-cigarette community, a press conference has been organized by the European Society of Cardiology,
presenting this study among the 4 most important smoking-related studies of the congress.

I can not provide you details on the study results, which must remain secret until the date of presentation,
but I can tell you that I look forward
to personally attend the presentation and gather impressions of colleagues present.

So when Giorgio makes a claim about electronic cigarette vapour not being harmless, I must remind him that he is a hypocrite unless he can disclose data;
it doesn't matter whether it is vital to his work or to the future of their business or is commercially sensitive, but that someone on a forum doesn't believe him.

If you cannot differentiate between wild claims with no offer of evidence and claims that can be substantiated if you would only make the effort to send an email
then it intimates to me that you are just stirring the pot, not the first and probably not the last. You have the gall to tell me 'It's never a good idea for a vendor
to comment of forums because the image they give, is how their company is perceived.', well back that up with evidence or jump on the hypocrisy bandwagon with me.

Best wishes

JC



I personally think that vendors add a lot of valuable information to this forum and long may it continue. Cool

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin (1706-1790)


İmage
22/08/12 07:32 PM
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JayLavEnts Offline
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Post: #49
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
The passion with which JC has written reminds we that we vendors have made career and life changing decisions to invest our time and faith in our product and way of life.

I write from the heart when I say that i hope we can all agree to be respectful of the efforts we go to- vendors and vapers alike- to encourage clarity, honesty and truth, although it is sometimes difficult in the prevailing circumstances, especially with regard to mainstream media.

I have said this before but it rings true for me,

We are engaged in a battle of hearts and minds. Vape free, vape happy.
I believe come Sunday the merits of our products and habit will have a strong health bias, and we should be grateful in expressing thanks and appreciation for any company who have invested more time and money than we have in trying their best to prove the efficacy of vaping as a health improvement tool.


Respect, and thanks.

JL
22/08/12 10:20 PM
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FlavourArtUK (23/08/12)
FlavourArtUK Offline
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Post: #50
RE: The "Carto equals" claim thread
Having slept and woke up renewed with the passion that drives me incessantly,
I hope my epic post did not offend or disturb anyone. The sarcastic edge to some
of my remarks is a result of frustration, intensified by my passion for what I do.
I'm making little out of my business, that is the truth, but I will continue as long
as possible because I believe in what I am doing, contributing to Harm Reduction.
If someone makes an unsubstantiated claim, possibly even libelous, against me or
the company I spent three and a half rewarding years working with, I will defend
it without flinching.

In October 2008 I met two people who offered me an opportunity to be a part of
something that I felt I could subscribe to with a passion, Harm Reduction.
The three of us shared a vision of making a tangible difference to the lives of smokers.
From just a few orders per day, we worked incessantly to build the company by
communicating with the people we aimed to serve. By the end of that first year we
had realised just over £1 million in sales, a amazng feat. We could have had a big share out
and bought new cars, holidays etc, but we didn't. The profits were reinvested into developing
the business along a specific path, one carefully charted to achieve our goal of Harm Reduction.
It was a tough but incredible journey and we were pioneers in many areas. There was no template
or established plan to follow, this was a new industry and it was up to us to make the plan,
to design the template. From two Directors and one employee, the company has grown into
a highly successful, global entity with over 60 employees and a Research and Development facility
that has set the highest standards in this industry. I was and still am, proud to have been a part of that.
The company has attracted a £2 million investment from a top investment group who specialise in
helping companies deliver innovative medical products to the mainstream market. None of that could have
been achieved without extensive research and clinical trials that are required by the MHRA before an
application for MA can be considered, an application that costs around £30k just to submit.
The vision, passion, and commitment of those two Directors is as vibrant and vital now as it was when
I first met them nearly four years ago. They believe and I believe that we can make a difference to
the lives of smokers.

The Pope (and many others) have claimed for centuries that God (their god) exists, but can they prove it?

Message from the founders

My apologies to anyone I might have upset.

JC

√-1 2^3 ∑ π and it was delicious!
İmage
23/08/12 08:18 AM
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